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	<title>Comments on: Gaffin and the OPC report</title>
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	<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/</link>
	<description>The cyberstalkable freelance writer making retractions on the web since 2000.... Oops, 1993?</description>
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		<title>By: Catholic-Protestant Dialogue &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Athanasian Creed</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-432412</link>
		<dc:creator>Catholic-Protestant Dialogue &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Athanasian Creed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-432412</guid>
		<description>[...] Richard Gaffin, former professor of Westminster Seminary, teaches a &#8220;not yet&#8221; component to our justification. He is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and his view has been challenged in the church courts. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Richard Gaffin, former professor of Westminster Seminary, teaches a &#8220;not yet&#8221; component to our justification. He is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and his view has been challenged in the church courts. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: the Foolish Sage</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-805</link>
		<dc:creator>the Foolish Sage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 05:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-805</guid>
		<description>Thank you a thousand times for this post! I just finished Gaffin&#039;s Acts &amp; Paul course at WTS. Time and again, as he explained the already/not-yet character of &lt;I&gt;all&lt;/I&gt; of the benefits of salvation (justification) included, I found myself shaking my head in utter consternation that Gaffin continues to think he differs substantially from Wright, whose &quot;future justification being pulled back into and applied in the present&quot; is really saying quite the same thing. 

At one point in the course, Gaffin even made the emphatic point that in Paul&#039;s theology, the present flows out of the future, rather than vice versa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you a thousand times for this post! I just finished Gaffin&#8217;s Acts &amp; Paul course at WTS. Time and again, as he explained the already/not-yet character of <i>all</i> of the benefits of salvation (justification) included, I found myself shaking my head in utter consternation that Gaffin continues to think he differs substantially from Wright, whose &#8220;future justification being pulled back into and applied in the present&#8221; is really saying quite the same thing. </p>
<p>At one point in the course, Gaffin even made the emphatic point that in Paul&#8217;s theology, the present flows out of the future, rather than vice versa.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Horne</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-804</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Horne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 15:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-804</guid>
		<description>Ben, if I have affirmed &quot;two justifications&quot; (I can&#039;t remember doing so but that doesn&#039;t mean I didn&#039;t do it at some point), I would be happy to change the expression in line with what I wrote above and that you quoted.  That is my theology.

As far as I know, the claim that there were two utterly different justifications that cannot be explained in terms of the already/not-yet dynamic of the Bible, is one that originates in the OPC report, not in Wright or anyone else.  It would be easy to construct an accusation against Gaffin on this point if was to read him uncharitably.  I&#039;m asking for the same respect to be shown to others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, if I have affirmed &#8220;two justifications&#8221; (I can&#8217;t remember doing so but that doesn&#8217;t mean I didn&#8217;t do it at some point), I would be happy to change the expression in line with what I wrote above and that you quoted.  That is my theology.</p>
<p>As far as I know, the claim that there were two utterly different justifications that cannot be explained in terms of the already/not-yet dynamic of the Bible, is one that originates in the OPC report, not in Wright or anyone else.  It would be easy to construct an accusation against Gaffin on this point if was to read him uncharitably.  I&#8217;m asking for the same respect to be shown to others.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-803</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 14:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-803</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand how people can fulminate about how Justification is totally &quot;forensic&quot; and yet not see that an &quot;aquittal&quot; is precisely the word for a forensic justification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand how people can fulminate about how Justification is totally &#8220;forensic&#8221; and yet not see that an &#8220;aquittal&#8221; is precisely the word for a forensic justification.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-802</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 14:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-802</guid>
		<description>I realized that you laid out what you think in the last paragraph of your post.

That seems to be exactly what Dr. Gaffin affirms, however I still, for the life of me, cannot see why we would want to call this &quot;two justifications&quot;.

Why not just say as you have:

&quot;The justification Jesus received at his resurrection, the justification we receive when we are effectually called by the Spirit to be united to Christ by faith, and our open acquittal at the Last Day are all one.&quot;?

Regardless of what Pictet says (which I am not familiar with), what you have said here seems to be a much better way of putting it and in line with the WCF.

Ben</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realized that you laid out what you think in the last paragraph of your post.</p>
<p>That seems to be exactly what Dr. Gaffin affirms, however I still, for the life of me, cannot see why we would want to call this &#8220;two justifications&#8221;.</p>
<p>Why not just say as you have:</p>
<p>&#8220;The justification Jesus received at his resurrection, the justification we receive when we are effectually called by the Spirit to be united to Christ by faith, and our open acquittal at the Last Day are all one.&#8221;?</p>
<p>Regardless of what Pictet says (which I am not familiar with), what you have said here seems to be a much better way of putting it and in line with the WCF.</p>
<p>Ben</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-801</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 14:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-801</guid>
		<description>I am not saying that you believe something that is wrong, I am just attempting to show how it seems extremely liable to misunderstanding to affirm two justifications (whether Pictet did so or not).

I think I would put the issue of regeneration in the same category. Calvin obviously used regeneration to refer to much more than the initial work of the Holy Spirit causing a person to be spiritually enlightened, but given the systematic sense attached to the term in Reformed circles now, we should be very careful to affirm (if we follow Calvin) what the current sense of the word regeneration affirms as well.

I do agree with you that people should attempt to understand what you mean by two justifications, but it seems to me that it wouldn&#039;t hurt to jetison that language (even if you mean it in a completely orthodox sense) simply because of the confusion it is causing.

I don&#039;t see how you have to deny in any way what you are wanting to affirm about justification by also saying that there are not two distinct justifications.

It would probably help me if you could simply lay out what you mean, because I find myself (probably my own fault) confused by the language of two justifications. I don&#039;t see how the &quot;oneness&quot; and organic solidarity of present and future aspects of justification can be affirmed when two justifications are affirmed.

I suspect that you &lt;I&gt;mean&lt;/I&gt; the same thing that Gaffin means... although I am fairly sure that he is not comfortable using the language of two justifications.

Ben</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not saying that you believe something that is wrong, I am just attempting to show how it seems extremely liable to misunderstanding to affirm two justifications (whether Pictet did so or not).</p>
<p>I think I would put the issue of regeneration in the same category. Calvin obviously used regeneration to refer to much more than the initial work of the Holy Spirit causing a person to be spiritually enlightened, but given the systematic sense attached to the term in Reformed circles now, we should be very careful to affirm (if we follow Calvin) what the current sense of the word regeneration affirms as well.</p>
<p>I do agree with you that people should attempt to understand what you mean by two justifications, but it seems to me that it wouldn&#8217;t hurt to jetison that language (even if you mean it in a completely orthodox sense) simply because of the confusion it is causing.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see how you have to deny in any way what you are wanting to affirm about justification by also saying that there are not two distinct justifications.</p>
<p>It would probably help me if you could simply lay out what you mean, because I find myself (probably my own fault) confused by the language of two justifications. I don&#8217;t see how the &#8220;oneness&#8221; and organic solidarity of present and future aspects of justification can be affirmed when two justifications are affirmed.</p>
<p>I suspect that you <i>mean</i> the same thing that Gaffin means&#8230; although I am fairly sure that he is not comfortable using the language of two justifications.</p>
<p>Ben</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Horne</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-800</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Horne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 13:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-800</guid>
		<description>Ben, are you surprised I would affirm this?  I&#039;m sorry if I sound bitter, but as far as I can tell, Wright himself has insisted that justification is that final future verdict brought into the present.

Do we see any real argument in the report for this perjorative construction of Wright (to say nothing of the Presbyterians who appreciate Wright)?  As far as I can tell, the report is worthless unless you trust a bunch of unargued assertions on matters of fact regarding the content of what the reports&#039; targets believe and teach.

And in any case, Benedict Pictet has long been affirmed as a stalwart of Reformed Orthodoxy, and he explicitly states that James is speaking of a &quot;second justification.&quot;  This shibboleth test teaches us much about how social groups are able to affirm themselves by alienating others, but it tells us nothing about how one derives and confesses a consistent theology from Scripture or the Westminster Confession, or the Reformation heritage.

Above and beyond all this, there is still an amazing gap between the way Gaffin argues from the term &quot;acquitted&quot; in the Westminster Standards, and the way the Committee dismisses that same word (or between the Committee&#039;s own use of English Bible translations and their dismssal of the Confessions use of the word).  Here again there is no logic to follow.  There are simply conclusions asserted in the face of obvious precedents.  This is about group identity, not faithfulness to Scripture or love of the Reformed tradition.

Ben, does it not bother you at all that no one called me or Rich Lusk or Peter Leithart or anyone else and asked about &quot;two justifications&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, are you surprised I would affirm this?  I&#8217;m sorry if I sound bitter, but as far as I can tell, Wright himself has insisted that justification is that final future verdict brought into the present.</p>
<p>Do we see any real argument in the report for this perjorative construction of Wright (to say nothing of the Presbyterians who appreciate Wright)?  As far as I can tell, the report is worthless unless you trust a bunch of unargued assertions on matters of fact regarding the content of what the reports&#8217; targets believe and teach.</p>
<p>And in any case, Benedict Pictet has long been affirmed as a stalwart of Reformed Orthodoxy, and he explicitly states that James is speaking of a &#8220;second justification.&#8221;  This shibboleth test teaches us much about how social groups are able to affirm themselves by alienating others, but it tells us nothing about how one derives and confesses a consistent theology from Scripture or the Westminster Confession, or the Reformation heritage.</p>
<p>Above and beyond all this, there is still an amazing gap between the way Gaffin argues from the term &#8220;acquitted&#8221; in the Westminster Standards, and the way the Committee dismisses that same word (or between the Committee&#8217;s own use of English Bible translations and their dismssal of the Confessions use of the word).  Here again there is no logic to follow.  There are simply conclusions asserted in the face of obvious precedents.  This is about group identity, not faithfulness to Scripture or love of the Reformed tradition.</p>
<p>Ben, does it not bother you at all that no one called me or Rich Lusk or Peter Leithart or anyone else and asked about &#8220;two justifications&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-799</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 13:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-799</guid>
		<description>I think Jesse is right as far as Dr. Gaffin is concerned. If you call the final, open aquittal a second justification then it is extremely difficult (at least for me)not to see that as a new, dinstinct justification that was not secured when we placed our faith in Christ.

Would it not be better to affirm with Dr. Gaffin the &quot;oneness&quot; of justification in its two aspects (present/future) so as to not even give a hint that you are arguing for a first justification by faith and a second justification at the judgment that is not a present and secure reality for the Christian?

Or is this precisely what you are affirming and I am misundertanding?

Ben</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Jesse is right as far as Dr. Gaffin is concerned. If you call the final, open aquittal a second justification then it is extremely difficult (at least for me)not to see that as a new, dinstinct justification that was not secured when we placed our faith in Christ.</p>
<p>Would it not be better to affirm with Dr. Gaffin the &#8220;oneness&#8221; of justification in its two aspects (present/future) so as to not even give a hint that you are arguing for a first justification by faith and a second justification at the judgment that is not a present and secure reality for the Christian?</p>
<p>Or is this precisely what you are affirming and I am misundertanding?</p>
<p>Ben</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-798</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 03:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-798</guid>
		<description>Mark,

I think the key is the use of the word &quot;second&quot;.  Gaffin has made plain in all his discussions on this matter that the &quot;not yet&quot; of our justification is not a &quot;different/seperate/second&quot; justification but the same justification that we now have by faith made visible (by sight) on the last day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>I think the key is the use of the word &#8220;second&#8221;.  Gaffin has made plain in all his discussions on this matter that the &#8220;not yet&#8221; of our justification is not a &#8220;different/seperate/second&#8221; justification but the same justification that we now have by faith made visible (by sight) on the last day.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.hornes.org/mark/2006/05/18/gaffin-and-the-opc-report/comment-page-1/#comment-797</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 15:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=449#comment-797</guid>
		<description>Mark - is there an appropriate way for me to get my hands on the OPC report?  My email address is kenchristian@cox.net</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark &#8211; is there an appropriate way for me to get my hands on the OPC report?  My email address is <a href="mailto:kenchristian@cox.net">kenchristian@cox.net</a></p>
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